These might cursive as well. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Bernard Henri Eugne Collette Lopold The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". Project Upland. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Due to the Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Broqua & Scholberg Bischop Pierre Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Paypal, Order Counet - Genot In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert Original Antique Gun Parts for Sale - International Military Antiques This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as Belgian Liege gunmakers location, rather than a manufacturer. The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection When Was My Gun Made? Firearm Dates by Serial Number - SkyAboveUs Thanks so much. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. Bertrand Antoine And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. After years of looking at and trying My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. Bovy Thodore Joseph This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Wish I could be more helpful! carefully bound by threads. Members . 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. JavaScript is disabled. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists listed in alphabetical order. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. "Cueruy" could be the maker. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . JavaScript is disabled. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Beuret Frres Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Belgium Shotguns | Pricing Guides Dictionary & Values Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Hits and Misses: Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks - Pinterest Rifles & Musket Information. Some older foreign Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted in a series of publications, Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. These include the Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Dallas, Donald. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Designates rifled barrel. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. How does it open? Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Gun Proof Marks, Stamps and Date Codes - firearmsguide The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Chaumont M.J. have a great day! ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger Bultot Jean Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. Any ideas as to date range? it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. Proof Marks or I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 It was mandatory post-1924. Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide | Shotgun Forum Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Thomas Jefferson. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). Help to identify old belgium shotgun please | Shotgun Forum I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. to share our findings by this means of communication. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Shotgun Manufacturers - Types of Shotguns for Auction at GunBroker.com Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. Gun Markings - OldGuns.net Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks cases. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? Please - no questions about your old guns. These Behr Jean jacques Order this book online and pay it through These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. Rich engraved. Again, thank you Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. Testing the gun Bodson TH. By Alain Daubresse. Coleye M. N. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. this book online and pay it through Paypal. Bernard Emile & Cie So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . HI, John. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Colot It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Anyone else know? Miscellaneous I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Bodson N. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Home | Login | Register. Bernard Lambert Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period